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posted by FODU @ 5/31/2006 12:19:00 AM
122 comments
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122 Comments:
Another brilliant article by KC Johnson:
Witness for the Defense?
Flashback to the height of the liberal vigilante mob
Faculty advisor Bruce DePyssler and his staff the NCCU Echo student newspaper published these fraudulent email pretending to be from Colin Finnerty.
Mr DePyssler, you might inform your students and your administration that intentionally publishing defamatory information that you know to be false is actionable.
As you can see the article is still posted.
CampusEcho@nccu.edu
BRDEP@BELLSOUTH.NET
LMAYNOR@NCCU.EDU
JAMMONS@NCCU.EDU
webmaster@nccu.edu
BJONES@WNCCU.EDU
FCARVER@NCCU.EDU
BJOHNSON@NCCU.EDU
JELLERBE@NCCU.EDU
PMURRAY@NCCU.EDU
TNYEIN@NCCU.EDU
IOWENS@NCCU.EDU
RPIERCE@NCCU.EDU
Re above: Only the “extreme stupid” and “ridiculously dumb” would think that email was written by Collin. If that is what the NCCU people want to believe, let them. They only show how smart they are. No harm done, their intelligence level documented, IMO.
Of course, far be it from the Echo to publish all the information they gathered about the AV (they held some of that back).
If the Echo really wants, I suppose someone can arrange for them to recieve an email from Mike Nifong. . .
(Maybe they'll print that one, too...)
That "email" supposedly from Collin is ridiculous! These boys are all good students at Duke, for crying out loud! None of them would ever be that stupid!
It even says at the bottom of the article that the email originated from an IP in New Zealand. Now, we're getting somewhere...
I just finished reading that so called E-Mail from Collin.
Give me a break. For one I don't think Collin would be that dumb.
2) That E-Mail has more spelling mistakes in it than I ever make. I just printed it out so I could read it.
3) The ISP isn't even in the USA.
Last I am home now. I posted on the new board what happened yesterday. My Brother and Sister -in-Law said to say Thank you to all of FODU for the well wishes to my family.
A lightening fast lame response from NCCU's DePyssler and my brief dismissal of his nonsense.
Today's thought: Being a liberal vigilante means never having to say you're sorry.
--- NCCU's Campus Echo wrote:
Please re-read our article. In the fourth paragraph we say the following: "And one even purports to be from the indicted lacrosse player, Colin Finnerty." Later in the article we provide information from Chris Cramer, Duke U. IT Security Officer, saying that the e-mail originated from a server in New Zealand.
We make no claim in the article that the e-mail was from Finnerty.
Rony Camille,
Editor
Bruce DePyssler
Adviser
Campus Echo
N.C. Central University
---------------------
Mr. DePyssler-
That is a bogus explanation.
If a journalist proves (as you apparently did) that an email is a forgery and fraud, you do not say it is a "purported" email, and seek comment from a law professor, a defense lawyer and a prosecutor on why Mr. Finnerty sent it.
You say that the email was fake.
Instead, your article was patently dishonest and libelous.
You intentionally published a falsehood after you knew the true facts.
Remember the phony email sent out earlier claiming to be from one of the team members, and sent to all other team members, saying that someone was cooperating with the DA?
So, we might expect to see more of these.
NCCU will say they published this as part of a "news" story--how they got a phone email and checked it out.
But someone should ask them if they are that interested in "news",why they won't print everything they learned about the AV.
(Not printing all the facts is called censorship, whether it's self-censorship or done by another. So, ask them why they censored their own reporting about the AV?)
I love how they made a fool out of Irving Joyner to get him to comment on a forgery like it was real.
If there is _one_ person who has been exposed as a fraud in this case (besides Mikey and his crew of felons of course), it is Professor Joyner.
What an idiot.
If everyone thinks back to when this whole thing broke. The DPD got their hands on an E-Mail by one of the players. Done just after the party. If I remember the timing.
How did they get there hands on it. The young man didn't give it to them. Someone (maybe at Duke) I don't know for sure. Please remember this is just a thought, might have the codes to all of the student accounts, and typed one up to make it look like Collin did it. Maybe someone with an axe to grind?
Anyone interested in the legal issues facing the DP and DA Nifong should go to the Free Republic link posted earlier today and read the judgment issued by the US District Court in NY on a very similar case. The plaintiff, Jovanovic, who was arrested, charged and convicted on a rape charge filed a complaint against the police (Bonilla), the ADA (Fairstein) and the state of NY after his conviction was overturned, in part because of a 'fundamental misinterpretation of the Rape Shield Law which excluded critical information and deprived [Jovanovic] of a fair trial.' (I have paraphrased from the court's ruling.) This ruling rejects the efforts of the police and the ADA to have the complaint against them dismissed, and lays out the reasons police and the DA can be charged with prosecutorial misconduct, false arrest and other charges. The case has many similarities to the Duke case, including a victim who had credibility problems (and this goes to the heart of the misinterpretation of the Rape Shield Law, as the serious problems with her account were not adequately revealed at trial.) One of the many interesting legalities discussed in this ruling is that (again I paraphrase) 'the fact that a victim provides police with information of an alleged crime does not... establish probable cause. ...the officer has a duty to assess the reliability of the victim and [if questionable] to investigate the allegations and corroborate them.' Reasons given to suspect the victim in the above case included 'inconsistent accounts given to police, medical and forensic evidence that did not support the allegations, and a history of false sexual allegations.' The judge's ruling also states that a 'grand jury indictment is not proof of probable cause' (as many of the legal pundits like Georgia seem to think) if the indictment is the 'product of fraud, ...suppression of evidence by police or other police conduct undertaken in bad faith.' The ruling also discusses when judicial immunity does not apply to a DA's extrajudicial statements--a very narrow exclusion.
JA
This is very interesting reading (although it is 31 pages of legalese.) I urge everyone to read it--I am not a lawyer, but found it very enlightening as far as the legal recourse the lacrosse players might have once they are acquitted.
Re the 9/3/06 10:11 am "Court Post" of the NY decision in General Topics 14 (and building on the previous post -- are you sure you're not a lawyer -- excellent summary!), here is an excerpt from the court's opinion that FODU readers will find enlightening:
“The fact that a victim provides the police with information of an alleged crime does not, without more, constitute probable cause. Rather, the officer has a duty to assess the reliability of the victim and, if circumstances call into doubt the victim’s veracity, to investigate the allegations and corroborate them…Defendants further argue that Plaintiff’s indictment by a grand jury precludes a claim for false arrest, as it creates a presumption of probable cause. While a grand jury indictment does create a presumption of probable cause…it is rebuttable ‘by evidence that the indictment was the product of fraud, perjury, the suppression of evidence by the police or other police conduct undertaken in bad faith.’…”
Jovanovic v. City of New York, et al., opinion filed August 17, 2006, at 11-13 (SDNY)
The prior post summarizes the facts of the case, which I recall at the time being quite a sensational headline-grabber. There are a number of similarities to this case that I find a bit eerie.
Law Professor Irving Joyner and Whitney Bull (the author) both believed the email was real.
Because that's how they believe white people are.
I doubt either of those people is dumb intelletually.
Their racism and rush-to-judgment made them stupid.
Willing to believe anything.
In fact that could have made a great article by Whitney Bull along the lines of "how i believed that an absurd email from 'Collin Finnerty' was probably true and what it says about my own racism and tendency to mob aciton"
but that would have taken courage and independence.
Oh well.
Re the 1:43 pm post citing KC Johnson's latest excellent article --
Well said, KC! It has bothered me from the beginning of this nightmare that North Carolina has so few checks on the district attornies in their employ. My early reading of the pertinent regulation had me thinking that the only possible way to get a special prosecutor appointed in this case would be if Nifong were to be called as a witness, which would knock him out of the DA's box for purposes of trying this case.
Congratulations to KC Johnson for setting forth such an excellent list of instances in which Nifong's own shameless self-promotion and posturing before the camera may now come back to haunt him. I'd call him as a trial witness in a heartbeat and let him try to squirm out of it while effort to appoint a special prosecutor goes forward.
Thank you, 4:10 poster, for correctly citing the court case from which I paraphrased, and for the specific quote. For those who are interested in reading this decision here is the link: http://www.nylawyer.com/adgifs/decisions/082506crotty.pdf
Everyone that is interested in the legal issues should read this.
JA
woops--the website mentioned above should be: www.nylawyer.com/adgifs/decisions/082506crotty.pdf
Here is a good op-ed from yesterday's Herald Sun. It is written by a a Durham resident named Whitney Campbell.
Let’s rally for Cheek
To Moderator and all. I apologize for posting this message here. I know it is supposed to be on the new board but I have tried to post there and, for whatever reason, I can't get it to work. So, I think this is important enough to break the rules and I will then end posting and ride off into the sunset.
KP: Regarding your letter. I know you have been working very hard on this but I have just two more suggestions.
In numbered paragraph-1, I would insert the following words after statements, "have been made". Then after Nifong, I would insert the word "who". I think that would make the sentence flow better. It appears to be a dangling sentence as now written.
Also, in numbered paragraph-2, the word "form" should be "from"..
Good writing and adios, all!
Can Mr. Nifong be called to as a witness for the defense, if he talks about this case at all between now and the election?
When this case first came to the national spot light, he talked up his case. This was before he even had any evidence. DNA or other wise.
Above Professor Plum - Thank you for all your assistance in finalizing K.P.'s letter. You were very helpful. Now, K.P. is almost ready to send her letter off to the DOJ.
I think if Nifong is called to testify it will be only tangentially related to his public statements but instead to his and racist cop Mark Gottlieb's apparent obstruction of justice in the release of discovery material.
In other words, what Nifong knew and when did he know it.
When these charges are proven false, and they will be. Who can be sued if anyone, other than Nifong?
When these charges are proven false, and they will be. Who can be sued if anyone, other than Nifong?
Nifong can argue that he was only doing his duty as a prosecutor,and that he relied on information brought him by police investigators (Himan and Gottlieb).
He can turn on them and there is no paper trail to himself, only their recollections--which he will dispute.
It is very, very hard to prove malicious prosecution; but you can prove police misconduct (by selective officers)
Nifong may have been doing his "job" as D.A. But what about the fact he deliberately rig the Line up. Not only did that break Durham PD rules, but the Federal Law.
To above: Therefore Nifong could be call as a witness and that is why he need to step down as the prosecutor. If the police officers say they were ordered to use the Nifong lineup that would be hearsay, Nifong could be compelled to testify as to what he ordered.
Nifong may have been doing his "job" as D.A. But what about the fact he deliberately rig the Line up. Not only did that break Durham PD rules, but the Federal Law.
We only have the policemen's word that it was Nifong who ordered an improper lineup.
He'll say that he just ordered a lineup, and assumed that veteran officers knew how to conduct one.
(There's nothing on paper to say otherwise.)
Nifong and company will never admit to lying to get a warrant.
Second, Nifong has broken more federal laws than I can count.
Third Nifong has never tried a rape case before, so when This landed on his desk, he needed to show the people of Durham that he is competent for the job.
Well he "Nifong" is making the Gov. of North Carolina look really bad.
The group notified police Chief Jim Fealy, who notified the Forsyth County District Attorney's Office and the SBI.
So did Chief Chalmers get notified there was a warrant issued based on false info provided by a police officer?
Did Chalmers then notify the DA
and the SBI?
Did anyone notify the SBI?
Forsyth County District Attorney Tom Keith DIMISSED THE CHARGES.
The reason: THE SEARCH WARRANT WAS INVALID
So Nifong drops the charges because a police officer wrote up invalid warrants. (He rages at the officer, and maybe fires him; but it's not the DA's fault, his hands are tied, there's nothing else he can do at this point. . .)
Can the defense make CGM stick to what she said in the line-up interview? I know that they can hold her to the grand jury testimony if she even gave any.
If she was under some kind of "Date-Rape" drug she had a very good memory of that night. She talked about twenty/twenty-one of the players. What they did and where they were in the house. She even remembered what kind of pants one of the guys had on.
See the website in my 4:30 post from yesterday and read the NY court decision. It addresses many of the issues regarding the grounds for charges against the DA and the police. Basically the NY case says that a complaint for false arrest could be filed against the police if they falsified a report that led to an indictment. Also, if a victim claims a crime occurred and the police have reason to question the victim's veracity, they are obligated to investigate and corroborate a victim's story before charges are filed.
While the DA has absolute immunity in performing his official prosecutorial functions, he has only qualified good faith immunity for activities outside his official prosecutorial functions (i.e., extrajudicial comments to the press.) From the above referenced court case it seems one would have to prove that the DA knowingly made false or highly prejudicial comments to the press, that those comments caused actual harm--i.e., the defendents are falsely convicted because the statements taint the jury pool, and that there were not other remedies available to the person falsely convicted. However, normally the DA is involved in the prosecution and not in the gathering of evidence--one would think that his immunity would not extend to illegal acts undertaken by the DA during the investigation that led to indictment, and that he might be subject to the same provisions of the law as the police for such illegal acts.
also, I think, but am not sure, that right now the main complaint would have to be false arrest. I think for prosecutorial misconduct and similar charges, they might need to be convicted before they had grounds for a complaint. Need an attorney--or closer reading of the NY case and the cases it cites to figure that one out.
The NYC case is long but worth reading as there are many similarities to the duke case.
Several days after praising reporter William West, I had to take out the wet noodle again at my nightly Herald-Sun editorial meeting.
Our topic: Herald-Sun writer Jack Daly plagiarizes the Associated Press (but adds a wee bit of original malicious spite of his own)
--------------
To the Truthinistas and Plagiarists of the Herald-Sun:
In his article today on the Duke Lacrosse practice, your reporter Jack Daly appeared to use Aaron Beard's AP story as a "template" for his efforts.
Some sample lines:
AP: They were back at practice, enthusiastically going through lacrosse drills on an overcast Monday morning.
Daly: On an overcast morning, the team members went through drills on the lacrosse fields behind Koskinen with obvious enthusiasm.
AP: And on this day, even a bad pass looked pretty good.
Daly: Even erratic shots didn't dampen the mood.
The factual portions appear to be also artful reworkings of Beard’s earlier truncated story that appeared on the wires within hours of the practice ending.
{Mr. Daly, plagiarism is a slippery slope going from stealing images and ideas to eventually stealing
actual entire sentences, then paragraphs, no longer bothering to rewrite. Just ask Jayson Blair.}
Daly does add one original piece of reporting to his piece that wasn’t cribbed from Aaron Beard.
It is this sentence “McFadyen, who was at practice after being reinstated by the school over the summer, was the player who wrote the e-mail -- apparently in jest -- that team members should kill strippers and "cut their skin off" at the next party.”
That act of pure maliciousness was, of course, nowhere to be found in any other media's reporting on the Lacrosse practice session.
{Malicious agendas can also end a journalistic career. Just ask Duff Wilson}
Why didn't the "in jest" comment appear anywhere else in the media portrayal of the practice.
Well, because it WASN"T RELEVENT TO THE STORY, but was just gratuitous hate on Daly's part.
Or maybe that particular detail was added by Nifong worshipper and moral monster Bob Ashley during the editing process. Hard to know.
But easy to spot a budding plagiarist. Jack Daly, take a bow.
In today's H-S: Duke Lacrosse Holds First Practice
http://www.heraldsun.com/sports/18-766839.html
The article focuses on the fact that this year, the team has adopted as its motto the phrase "Succisa virescit," which it says loosely translates as "What's cut down grows back stronger."
This is the motto of Reade Seligmann's high school, the Delbarton School, which is run by the Benedictine order of monks.
I looked up the phrase online and discovered that it is also the motto of the renowned Abbey at Montecassino, Italy, founded by St. Benedict in 530,
http://www.osb.org/gen/monte.html
which was destroyed over the centuries by a series of invaders who sacked it or by earthquakes, only to be rebuilt each time. This national monument was most recently destroyed when it was bombed by the Allies in the late stages of World War II in a famous battle. The Italian government later rebuilt it. The website for the Abbey --
http://www.officine.it/montecassino/storia_e/abbazia.htm --
which has as its symbol a cut-down tree with new branches sprouting from it, discusses this history in more detail and describes the Abbey's symbol as follows:
"After so many historical events, Montecassino may truly be symbolized by a many centuries-old oak, which although broken by the storm, always becomes green and alive again, stronger than ever: "succisa virescit".
The idea of using this motto was credited to player Fred Krom, a Delbarton alumnus, who deserves praise for his excellent suggestion.
Best of luck, guys -- I know that you will keep Reade, Collin and Dave in your hearts and prayers as you begin the preparations for a new season.
A nearby case . . .
Misconduct by NC Police
05/28/2005 - HIGH POINT, NC — Charges of cocaine trafficking against three area people were dropped Wednesday because of an "INVALID SEARCH WARRANT," according to court records.
The State Bureau of Investigation is examining the case and allegations that a HIGH POINT POLICE OFFICER PROVIDED FALSE INFORMATION.
(snip)
But on Tuesday, a group of High Point police officers found INCONSISTENCIES IN A FELLOW OFFICER'S REPORT.The group notified police Chief Jim Fealy, who notified the Forsyth County District Attorney's Office and the SBI.
On Wednesday, one day before the three people were scheduled to appear in court for a probable cause hearing, Forsyth County District Attorney Tom Keith DIMISSED THE CHARGES.
The reason: THE SEARCH WARRANT WAS INVALID and there was NO OTHER EVIDENCE to support a conviction, according to the release order.
Do not miss Jason Trumpbour's latest comments on the front page of this site and the link to Patsy McDonald's letter.
Does anyone have any inside scoop on when various of the defense motions on evidence will be heard. Certainly someone has filed a suppression motion to exclude the photo id's and without those the case completely collapses. It seems it is ripe for those to be heard now.
Otherwise I don't expect anything of substance to happen until the election. Even then nothing can really be done until a new DA takes office.
Above: Yes there have been motions to surpress. Judge Titus refused to hear any of them. The largest motion has to do with the photo line-up
This is an interesting and well-written student oped on the case Who Wins
My only problem is that the author didn't name specifically the faculty louts who prejudged guilt and attempted to use this case to gratify their own egos and advance their careers
They are Professors Orin Starn, Wahneema Lubiano, William Chafe (a former dean), Elizabeth Chin, Mark Anthony Neal, Anne Allison (a department chair), and Peter Wood.
They should be forever branded as what they are opportunistic vigilantes.
The Chronicle article referred to in the previous post contains two links to other articles about the return of the Duke Lacrosse team that reflected interesting and positive coverage of the team. They give readers some insight (that has been sorely lacking in other coverage) into this committed and dedicated group of student-athletes.
The Jovanovic case is remarkable. The first seven pages of the court decision cited by the 4:34 poster on 9/3 is really worth reading, here's the cite again:
www.nylawyer.com/adgifs/decisions/082506crotty.pdf
Oliver Jovanovic spent 20 months in jail following a false conviction in NY. He was a doctoral student at Columbia accused of rape following a consensual S&M session. The trial judge kept out a lot of the exculpatory evidence with an misapplication (the appeals court said) of the state's rape shield law. He's now suing the state and the primary officer and this decision issued last month keeps the suit going over multiple motions to dismiss.
I found more details on the case here:
http://www.cybercase.org/
I saw the duke team practicing. I thought the statments from 2 lacrosse players for their friends collin and reade admirable. So sad to see these 2 boys with 2-3 years ripped out of their college education - what a tragedy! I hoep they are managing to take some courses somewhere though some colleges have acted abhorently in not allowing other lacrosse players to transfer. I thougth the coach was mealy mouthed (as every faculty memeber appears to be at DUKE) While his stmt that the tragedy may be over for the team itelf it still lives on for 2 members of the team picked at random by the prostitute accuser.
Oh yes I loved the report n msnbc yesterday that "all the lacrosse players have returned none transferred" Yea, maybe its because all colleges of liberal elitists conspired to not allow any DUKE lacrosse players to transfer - many many lacrosse players even ones not accused attempted to transfer and were refused - stated reason they didn’t want lacrosse players from DUKE- what an outrage- this is because of Brodhead. On the other hand, None of the lacrosse players accepted as freshmen came to duke but that was not reported --most went to gtown or john Hopkins. Can you blame them ! I woudl never go to duke as a lacrosse palyer now- not after the way they have been treated by this town, by duke nor by the media, justice dept etc....
Correction to my 3:22 post above:
I stated that there was consensual S&M session in that case and that may not have been the case. Published reports say that the defendant and his accuser exchanged email messages, talked on the telephone, met for a dinner date and then went to his apartment where they watched a video. I did not see any admission by the defendant (now plaintiff) that there was consensual sex.
Also, the assistant d.a. in that case is a defendant in the civil suit.
Sorry.
Although not easy to do, let us be positive. Reade and Collin are getting a different type of education right now -- life lessons! They will come out of this ordeal stronger and better than ever before. It is only a phase and we cannot wait to see it over. Reade, Collin ad Dave: stay strong and positive. The end of the tunnel may be nearer than we all think. We love you guys, and we miss you.
The N&0 reports:
"This year, the Blue Devils have adopted the slogan "Succisa virescit," which is the latin motto of the Delbarton School in Morristown, N.J. Seligmann and three current Duke players attended the private school.
"It means when 'cut down, it grows back stronger,' " Matt Danowski said.
"Last season obviously got cut short. And I think we realize what a privilege it is and how much we actually miss and love playing lacrosse. So it's pretty fitting for us, I believe."
****
To use the Delbarton motto is, in my opinion, an expression of support for Reade and the other two players. Well done!
I find myself torn between several feelings today upon reading this board. I am heartened to see the support of Dave, Collin and Reade implicit in the lacrosse team's new motto-Succisa Virescit. However, I am frightened by the "Who Wins" article in the Duke Chronicle.
The author's first line, "I tend to be most concerned with the elements of a situation that directly affect me," and his subsequent comments are telling.
"To be honest, though, I don't fear for the long-term prospects of these gentlemen. They will probably remain the objects of adoration of much of the female contingent of the "Duke 500" touted by Rolling Stone. And for the most part they will continue to enjoy their lucrative, highly prized positions in (to use a buzz word of The Chronicle) "New York-area investment banks."
"So while the public disparagement of the team and the (almost entirely) baseless indictments against three players indeed represent a miscarriage of justice and of public opinion, I can't help but worry more about the lasting detriment to the reputation of our school."
I hear a creeping selfishness and apathy in this young man's tone and I find it disturbing. I think that all of the Friends of Duke need to realize just how difficult it is for these "Echo generation" young adults to act upon nothing more than principle. Just as our parents complained that the "Boomers" did not know what it meant to go through a Depression or a World War, our children do not know what it means to "bear arms against a sea of troubles, and, by opposing, end them."
Apathy and fear will be the greatest enemies to exonerating the three young men whose lives have been devastated by this hoax. I hope that, as the semester begins, that every student and faculty member on the campus understands the acronym Y.E.T.- You're Eligible Too.
This time it was Dave, Collin and Reade, next time it could be YOU.
Texas Mom
Above: I am not in generation X.
I was tought what it was like to struggle. I understand where you are coming from. I also read this article, and was ashamed of the tone this writer used.
Correction to above post: I am in Gerneration X
This year, the Blue Devils have adopted the slogan "Succisa virescit
Maybe the team can also keep Seligman and Finnerty on the team roster, and call their names out aloud whenever there is a roll call (as a gesture).
My guess is the old Collin with a few beers under his belt would have taunted these hypothetical students just a bit.
Maybe. But please don't base your opinion of Collin (or anybody else) based on what is written about them in the MSM; the MSM have agendas to promote, and they are capable of turning night into day (as we have seen in this case already).
(And I'll add to this that if the MSM reports of Collin's troubles in DC had stretched the facts any further, they would have snapped completely. The fictions there are indeed much, much stranger than the truth...)
I bet if some other students at Duke were being framed by a amoral, race-baiting DA like Nifong and a crooked racist cop like Mark Gottlieb, the old David, Reade and Collin could have cared less.
Probably. Just as we all probably ignored a judicial system that is out of kilter, corrupt judges, corrupt DAs, a jury system that is twisted from its original purpose (protecting the defendant) into being just another arm of a determined prosecution, etc.
We'll all be different after this (I hope for the better) and do something to try and change things.
6:57 poster. I hope you know these guys really well and you have spent a gret deal of time with them each. Otherwise, you are makinga a huge quantum leap to speculate how they will behave under this or that imaginary circumstance. If I were you. I would be very careful before making such daring statements. Just a thought.
My primary points are:
1) Engaging the student body to register to vote and then to actually vote will not be an easy task- overcoming the apathy of youth is difficult.
2) There still seems to be an overtone of dislike/jealousy/or something directed at the lacrosse team, and EVERYONE at Duke and in Durham needs to be reminded that Y.E.T. does apply to them- anyone is eligible to be next one falsely accused for personal gain.
Texas Mom
I will remind 7:57P that Duke is filled with young men.
And with the exception of 1 or 2 tepidly supportive OpEds, not a single one of them has taken any constructive action to oppose this injustice.
That includes the Lacrosse players themselves who are now full of talk about focusing on their game, and getting back to normal life.
That's the selfishness of male youth. And it is the natural order of things.
Natch, there's plenty of young male outrage at restrictions on Tailgate. But that's different.
(It is of course no surprise that the organizers of the anti-Nifong campaign at Duke are women. Y'all have a much more well-developed moral sense at that age, IMHO)
But anyway, moral outrage is wasted on youth.
And that leaves us to man/woman the barricades.
Why?
Mebbe it's just that as we get older and see ourselves, our friends and family get screwed in small and large ways, we emphathize.
Ain't no point in expecting young people to join the fray.
Or in stereotyping a generation.
Follow-through is for the oldsters.
I recently returned from Duke and found that my child's friends were blissfully unaware of what was happening in the lacrosse incident. Their main concern was how it affected Duke's ranking in the U.S. News & World Report listing of top colleges. My unscientific impression was one of apathy about the lacrosse players.
I warned them about avoiding the legal system in Durham County if at all possible. While I am sure that friends of the players will be active, don't count on the Duke student body as a whole to register or vote.
Sadly, I have to agree with the above observation. This is why we have to double or perhaps triple our efforts to get the student registration going. Yes, it will not be easy but it has to be done. I disagree, however, with the earlier comment suggesting that even the Lacrosse players themselves are indifferent to the situation. That is not true, it will never be true. I am totally convinced of that - unfortunately that by itself does not get us very far. We need the rest of the students to take this seriously.
To the 6:57PM poster, I have to agree with 7:57 on this. I really hope you know these guys personally and that's how you can be reasonably sure as to how they'd react.
Otherwise, I'm not sure it's fair to speculate that they wouldn't care at all or that Finnerty would get drunk and run around taunting people.
I recently returned from Duke and found that my child's friends were blissfully unaware of what was happening in the lacrosse incident.
They certainly wouldn't be aware if they had been at home over the summer and had only the main stream media to rely upon for info. They would be as uninformed as the rest of the public--and as blissfully assuming that the justice system will clear all the innocent in the end.
Someone might get a flyer to them with a list of illegalities about the prosecution, and websites
they can view to find out more about the case.
10:03 - I could not agree with you more.
Then I will post today's Cash Michaels column which says pretty much exactly the same thing
Cash is saying, you want this thing before a trial{hint, hint}, this is the way....
Silence is evidence
Step up.
Don't assume that because a Dukie doesn't register in Durham that he doesn't care about election issues or even about the lacrosse case. Some students have concerns about the issues in their home states and allegience to the communities they are from.
And I am sure they will go to their home state and vote (Sarcasm intended).
Give me a break.
OK then, here's a constructive suggestion for how all of those concerned Duke men and Lax players you mention might spend some community service time.
RecallNifong
Students for an Ethical Durham"
What, no takers?
To 10:29 from 10:23--
I guess I can only speak for mine. He's more interested in trying to toss "macaca" man (George Allen) out of office than he is Nifong.
10:30 poster: If the Duke lax players were doing something related to either "Recall Nifong" or "Duke Students for an Ethical Durham", you and I would be the last ones to know about it, right? Admit it. Would they put an ad in the paper to announce that they are doing “this” or “that?” Of course not. So, IMO, all these accusations are empty words, wasted time and wasted energy. Please, let's use our common sense and judgment. Let us not sound childish.
These comments are applicable only to the lax players. I have no idea about the other male students in Duke.
Sorry, all, I said I would ride off into the sunset and post no more. I think my personality may be wearing thin on our treasured friends of this site and I don't know how to post on the newly opened site.
KP- please read your unnumbered third paragraph again.
In your letter dated 9/02/06 (11:35 AM) you spell opinion correctly.
In your letter dated 9/04/06 (9:58 AM) you spell opinion correctly.
In your letter dated 9/05/06, (10:42 AM) you spell it opion.
Sorry, but I know you want a perfect letter as do we. Now, this time, I am really off into the sunset.
Plum
Saying is:
Patience good.
Truth strongest when wrong exposed.
Dear Professor Plum, it will sadden us to see you go off to the sunset. Please stay a little longer, if you can.
Your difficulty in posting on the Open Board is probably my fault. I neglected to explain, over there, that you need to enter a code at the very bottom of the screen each time you want to post a message. I suspect this is was your difficulty in posting there. If you can spare a few more minutes, please give it a try following these steps.
Step 1. Locate the topic where you want to post a message. Click on it to select it.
Step 2. Issue the "Reply" command to start your message.
Step 3. When finished typing, go all the way to the bottom of the screen, you will see 3 commands: Cancel, Preview, and Post. Above those commands, you will see two boxes. One of the boxes will have a code in it. You need to type that code in the second empty box.
Step 4. Then, click on the "Post message" command and you will be done. In your previous attempts you may have been skipping step3 above.
Please give this procedure a try. If it works, I will add it to the instructions on the Open Board so that others do not have the same difficulty. Thank you for all your patience.
Moderator
No saying of ancestors-only observation now. Sorry for saying too many times this day.
Site for love not hate. Examine sayings as for good or for evil. Site not for evil thoughts.
I had to remove a few comments again tonight. In the future, I would appreciate it if the commentators who disagree with one another (strongly disagree may be a better term to use) take their arguments to the Open Board. That board can deal with this type of discussion without disturbing the rest of us. By taking your bilateral disagreements there, you will be able to keep your comments posted and not run the risk for their removal.
Please give that option a try. It may work very well for you. You will never know unless you try it. Otherwise, I will have to keep cleaning up.
Moderator
" many many lacrosse players even ones not accused attempted to transfer and were refused - stated reason they didn’t want lacrosse players from DUKE- what an outrage- this is because of Brodhead."
Wrong - it was widely reported that the other ACC teams, and separately Syracuse, felt it important that the Duke Lax program remain intact - in fact they sacraficed their own interests in hope that the Duke program would be re-instated, AS BRODEAD DID.
"None of the lacrosse players accepted as freshmen came to duke but that was not reported"
Wrong again - The #1 prep scorer of ALL TIME (from Boston area) and several other recruits came aboard - sadly, 3 great recruits had to make a decision before the program was re-installed.
Business as usual, huh Coach
New motions filed to compel Nifong to release discovery info–
http://liestoppers.blogspot.com/
Among the new details to emerge:
There are VHS tapes of at least two of the ID sessions– the one held for Kim (the second dancer) was not done until May 11– which is AFTER the indictments!
There is a cache of internal police emails about the case, but these were never turned over to the defense. (The defense found out
about this email collection on their own while rummaging through the DPD files, but it still hasn’t been turned over)
Nifong (as of the date of the motion) STILL had not produced the tox report (though he told judge Smith he would)
The AV was involved in at least four police probes:
DUI — 2000
Larceny — 2000
Family/Minor — 2000
Child Molestation — 4-26-2004
She may have been a complaintant in the child molestation probe.
Seems like a great way to run an investigation--indict first, then collect the evidence; arrest every witness in sight to intimidate them; get the defendants trumped-up convictions of their own--I never saw anything like this on Law and Order!
I just read the Liestoppers piece. That article will make a great argument for an official DOJ investigation.
For friends who want to catch up on their reading, KC Johnson offers a reading list:
Best of the Case
To 1:11 AM
In a 6/15 Duke Chronicle article they discussed the incoming freshman situation
"Meanwhile, interim head coach Kevin Cassese hit the recruiting trail after his introductory press conference last week. The incoming freshman class originally included seven members, and three-Ken Clausen, Scott Kocis and Tom Dodge-committed to other schools when Duke released them from their national letters of intent in April.
Joining that group is Craig Dowd, an attackman from Northport, N.Y., whose older brother Kyle was a senior on Duke's team this past season. The younger Dowd will enroll at Georgetown in January instead of Duke, Kennedy said.
The three remaining recruits-Max Quinzani, Parker McKee and Terrence Molinari-are all expected to be Blue Devils for the 2007 season.
Quinzani, who holds the national high school scoring record for men's lacrosse, said Wednesday that Cassese had traveled to Duxbury, Mass., to watch him play in the state championship game."
I think the fact that they lost Craig Dowd, whose brother, Kyle, just graduated says alot about how these players were treated by their fellow students, the administration, and their professors. This article was after Brodhead reinstated the team but before a coach was found.
Re above - Put yourself in Mr. Dowd's shoes (father of Kyle and Craig) what would you do? I would do exactly what Mr. Dowd did; perfectly reasonable decision.
To 1:11 AM
The 6/15 Duke Chronicle had an article about the incoming class of lacrosse recruits.
"Meanwhile, interim head coach Kevin Cassese hit the recruiting trail after his introductory press conference last week. The incoming freshman class originally included seven members, and three-Ken Clausen, Scott Kocis and Tom Dodge-committed to other schools when Duke released them from their national letters of intent in April.
Joining that group is Craig Dowd, an attackman from Northport, N.Y., whose older brother Kyle was a senior on Duke's team this past season. The younger Dowd will enroll at Georgetown in January instead of Duke, Kennedy said.
The three remaining recruits-Max Quinzani, Parker McKee and Terrence Molinari-are all expected to be Blue Devils for the 2007 season.
Quinzani, who holds the national high school scoring record for men's lacrosse, said Wednesday that Cassese had traveled to Duxbury, Mass., to watch him play in the state championship game."
I think the fact that Craig Dowd opted out is very telling. His older brother, Kyle, just graduated from Duke and was a lax player who experienced firsthand the treatment of fellow students, the administration, and professors. These players went through a lot and didn't go out and publicly complain about how the school treated them.
Sorry for posting that twice...I couldn't see it the first time. I agree I don't blame Mrs. Dowd at all...I think my second attempt at the post expresses that better.
Duke lacrosee had a bit of a history of siblings playing for Pressler, hopefully, when the 3 players are cleared (however that happens...charges dropped, or found not guilty at trial) and the current team helps restore the team's image, that tradition will continue....
There seems to be a tendency to disallow links to and discussion of FODU on the Court TV message boards. Friends might consider joining and providing links to liestoppers, Durhain Wonderland, talk left, FUDU etc. Be aware that posts might be dropped or that posters might even be banned.
http://boards.courttv.com/index.php?s=e77e2a0a71acc5f9b8f099bb5914d4ee
I just wanted everyone to know. I just E-Mailed my letter to the DOJ. I will let everyone know if and when they reply.
As far as this year's recruits, the three that remained, did so because they were not able to go anywhere until at least the spring semester an did not wnat to wait. Craig Dowd is not attending Georgetown until the Spring semester. Everyone should understand these recruits did not abandon Duke, Duke abandoned these recruits just like it abandoned the rest of the lacrosse team. New strong leadership is the only way for Duke to get back what it has lost. Brodhead is weak and caved to media pressure. He has allowed the faculty unabridled authority to defame this team as is evidenced by the Chronicle ad still posted on the African American website, as just an example. Unless you are a player or a family member of a player, you cannot understand how these young men were treated by a school that their families entrusted them to. Duke recruits stating "Duke is a fmaily". A family does not sacrifice one child (the lacrosse team), for others (the rest of the Duke students). What's worse, Duke still refuses to do the right thing and stand up and defend Colin REade and Dave from this travesty of justice. What lessons are they teaching their students?
12:42 poster. Please clarify your recommendation.
1. Are you saying we should add links to this site pointing to those other blogs? That is already done. See “Links to media” page of this site, under item b for blogs and discussion boards.
2. Or, are you suggesting FODU readers sign up to these other boards and place links back to FODU?
If you are recommending the latter, that is problematic! Usually, moderators of blogs/boards don't like that --advertising your own board on another board? That is not polite. Of course, there are those who ignore this rule all the time. But, I would suggest that we keep it in mind and respect it.
On the other hand, if you are a member of another board and you are familiar with their guidelines, and those guidelines do not restrict you from placing links, you are free to place a link anywhere you like. The important thing is to make clear you are posting a link on your own behalf and not on behalf of FODU. Let us be kind and not trespass on anyone’s blog/board. Use of a little judgment can do the trick.
Moderator
The CTV board has no restriction on posting links. However there are individual posters that object to anything supporting the falsely accused or their families. Certainly no one should post representing FODU. In addition to the Duke scandal section there are also discussion goups for Nancy Grace and other personalities
re my post " many many lacrosse players even ones not accused attempted to transfer and were refused - stated reason they didn’t want lacrosse players from DUKE- what an outrage- this is because of Brodhead."
Wrong - it was widely reported that the other ACC teams, and separately Syracuse, felt it important that the Duke Lax program remain intact - in fact they sacraficed their own interests in hope that the Duke program would be re-instated, AS BRODEAD DID.
Actually i ma friends with severla lacrosse palyers who actively moved to leave duek and were denied by several colleges which had accepeted them as freshmen - they didnto want to stay -so you are sayign they were denied b/c the colleges were looking for greater good? please i have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you. My friends didnot want to stay b/c of the tremendous taint that has been put on them by employers.Who would want to live under the restriction duke has placed upon them -they feel that brodhead and duke has let them down as do i!
"None of the lacrosse players accepted as freshmen came to duke but that was not reported"
Wrong again - The #1 prep scorer of ALL TIME (from Boston area) and several other recruits came aboard - sadly, 3 great recruits had to make a decision before the program was re-installed.
Again you are wrong - several players transferred to georgetown but more importnatly it was too late for severla players to move- some were accpeted but told they woudl have to 2nd string them etc... and so they decided RELUCTANTLY TO ATTEND DUKE - So, Again you don't know what you are talking about
2:09 p.m. poster seems to conflict a bit with the 1:11 a.m. poster on the reason three of the four recruits went elsewhere. 1:11 said three went because they couldn't wait for Duke to decide to reinstate the team(doesn't say if they had to defer admission to January). 2:09 seems to suggest that none of them wanted to come and the only reason the three did so was that no one else would take them in the fall semester and they are reluctant matriculants.
I don't know myself. I certainly don't blame any kid for changing his mind given what was, and still is going on.
What lessons are they (Duke administrators, presumably) teaching their students? That multi-million dollar corporations give lip service to "family" but if you get in the kind of trouble, falsely or not, that casts the corporation in a bad light, the corporation will distance itself from you and maybe let you back in if you come through the trouble alright (on your own).
Complaining about university administrators not backing students in trouble is kind of like complaining about lying politicians.
Stories on freshman lax players Quinzani (who stayed) and Clausen (who switched to UVa) on a sports website (the clausen article is linked in the opening paragraph):
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2492499
The Liestoppers blog titled "Occan's Razor" has a link to "Osborn's Motion to Suppress Photographs" which is great. The motion includes the actual written statment of Kim Roberts, as well as the police (Sheldon and Himan) statements. While the information is not new, it is very compelling to actually read Kim's initial statement of the events that night. She is extremely articulate and it is such a clear, well-written description of the evening that there can be no doubt she remebered the events perfectly when she wrote the statement. It makes her "change of heart" later (in exchange for favors from Nifong) mpossible to believe!
I know first-hand that at least one fraternity (and I imagine more than one) circulated voter registration forms at their meeting, and had every member fill one out. They all plan to vote for Cheeks. While almost all college students do worry most about things that affect them directly (as did many of us at that age) they DO try to do the right thing.
We must be certain that not only do we succeed at voter registration, but that we are certain that these new voters are properly registered at the Board of Elections. We must be viligant in preventing voter fraud against these young voters. In addition, it is one thing to register, another to actually vote. Is there a precinct within walking distance to the campus? Our greater goal is to get these students to cast a ballot.
Whoever is managing the ABN campaign should make sure they have representatives in Durham with the voter registration lists, and they should have a group that highlights all the students ( pretty easy to do from address.) They should have student volunteers who put signs up on campus so everyone knows where their polling place is, and they should have a phone group to call those who haven't voted by 4-5 PM on election day. Typical campaign stuff.
Good points 7:49 Poster...making registering and voting as easy and as clear as possible will help turnout in the election. Make sure it's easy for the registration forms to be sent in/collected in enough time and giving the new voters instructions about the location of their polling place will help immensely, I would think.
Texas Mom
I have a thought, how about taking busses full of students from the campus or even car pooling maybe renting vans for the day? I know for people with disabilities the special vans will pick us up, take us to the polling place and return us home. The bus Co. will does that all day long. They even do this for free here.
Busses - great idea. Dozens of them pulling into the Duke campus to take students to vote. Maybe, just maybe the Group of 88 would get the picture - they aren't relevant. The image is powerful. The thought of it brings a tear to my eye.
There may even be a polling place on or near campus. They are usually all over to try and make it easy for people to vote. The Election Commission in Durham probably has it on a website.
your welcome. That is how my sister, gets taken to the polling station. I think she blogs in here?
Here's the link to the Durham Polling places. I don't know Durham well enough to know which one the students would use. It looks like the ones at the top of the list are the best candidates, though.
http://www.durhamcountync.gov/
departments/elec/Polling_Locations.html
Seems we also learn from the motion that there are apparently hundreds of pages of the SBI report on the DNA testing that have not yet been handed over to the defense;
That Nifong, Gottlieb, and Himan travelled twice as a group to the private DNA testing lab in Burlington which did the second tests (on April 10 and again about ten days later) and there met with the head of the lab (what did they discuss? why would all three of them have to go? why would any of them have to go?);
And that the defense requests a chain of custody for the DNA evidence, plus an analysis of the software used in the testing; and various other info about validating the procedures;
And that the AV met with the DA and three law enforcement officers in April. The DA refused in court to turn over records of that meeting, saying it was not about the case and was “work product” (between an attorney and client); but the notes of Sgt. Gottlieb say that they met “and discussed the case”. In any event, since LE officers were present, it could not be considered a meeting between ‘attorney and client’, and therefore ‘work product’.
And so on . . .
It looks like West campus is in precinct #5 which means the polling place for most students would be the W.I. Patterson Recreation Center 2000 Crest St. East campus may be in a different precinct.
I of course wish the Duke 3 all the best is overcoming the hoax and in handing Nifong a crusing defeat.
But increasingly I find myself in agreement with these sentiments:
Beyond Buchanan Boulevard
The true believers on this board can scream all they want but the apparent desire of the entire lacrosse team to "not mention last year" and "get back to normal" while 3 of their number are facing life in prison is one of the most pathetic responses I have ever seen.
This collective act of moral cowardice makes me wonder whether Wood and Starn weren't right about this group all along.
Delete away, Moderator. You and your tribe of intolerants have lost the moral high ground as far as I am concerned.
The public response of the team does not upset me--they are saying what they need to say to move forward with their season. Plus, we don't know what the press asked, or what they editted out. And I know that many of the lacrosse players are doing what they can for the three--like actively working on voter registration. However, what does bother me is the revelation (for me anyway) in "Beyond Buchanan Boulevard," the article in INDY by Rickards, a Duke alum, that the SAT scores for the athletes are SO low. I knew they were lower than non-athlete's scores, but for a team to average in the 900s or 1000s is absolutely absurd. And the article about Clausen, the lacrosse recruit who decided to go to UVA, said his score was in the 1700s. Since 1600 is the max on the two part SAT which is how SAT scores are still typically described, this 1700 score is his three-part SAT score--which means he averaged 570 on each test! While I have been totally supportive of all the athletics at Duke, this huge discrepancy IS something the university needs to address. In spite of the fact that many feel Duke did not do right by the team, and there are some legitimate points there, all the teams at Duke have tremendous "perks" including tutors for any/every subject they want and priority scheduling so they get the "best" or "easiest" classes--classes that are available to very few "regular" students.
To 3:44, the article you cite seems quite at odds with your disgust at the current team's desire to get on with their own lives and season. I missed that supposed sentiment of the team, by the way, could you give me a link to a report of that attitude? Are they supposed to stop playing in protest of the ongoing prosecution?
The article itself should be read by anyone interested in the issue of Div. I sports side by side with high academics. I invite the moderator to copy 3:44's message to the OT board so issues raised in the article can be addressed and discussed. (Don't delete it from this one, though, it SHOULD be read.) I have a lot to say about it but most of it IS off topic to this forum, at least at this time. Earlier I suggested people in this forum may want to get involved in the debate about the future of athletics at Duke, and this could be a beginning.
Just as a teaser, the article's author uses long-ago discredited and unenforceble racial restrictions in land deeds to slam the Duke's current owners of the properties. But of course, in my brief exposure to the Independent Weekly I have come to expect unfair attacks upon Duke in its pages. After all, that's where Prof. Wood's posed picture along with his attacks appeared.
Several miscellaneous observations re the 3:44 and 8:45 posts:
First, despite the disparity in scores reported on in the Indy article, remember that the Duke lacrosse team had a high number of students on the ACC honor roll and a 100% graduation rate. Don't be confused by generalizations -- these stats tend to apply more to big money-making sports for colleges nationwide.
Second, Ed Rickards, a double Duke grad and author of the Indy piece, exhibits more than a bit of the intensity that only alums can muster when criticizing their own institution. I always take these kids of article with a grain of salt as a result, even if some of his observations, taken down a notch, have some validity.
Third, enough with the criticism of the team already! Hasn't anyone learned after all these months to read between the lines of what's reported? The focus of the coverage is the lacrosse season being reinstated and beginning to practice with a new coach. We can infer absolutely nothing from the absence of quotes regarding the Duke case -- remember that anything you say, especially in Durham, can and will be used against you, plus none of these guys wants to be compromised as a witness for the time when they will be called upon to speak publicly in court. Better not to give Nifong et al. anything, anything to try to distort.
To find these guys guilty of "one of the most pathetic responses [he or she has]...ever seen" and of a "collective act of moral cowardice" because they were not quoted on the Duke case in print (undoubtedly on the advice of counsel) is highly judgmental and, I believe, unfair to these kids who are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position. If my son were one of these players, I would absolutely advise him not to say word one to the press about the case whatsoever. Their motto for the season, which they have publicly announced to the media and which is written on their practice t-shirts, says it all -- "Succisa virescit" -- cut it down and it grows back stronger. They don't have to speak to the press about their private sorrow and pain -- their shirt speaks for them. By adopting the motto of Reade's high school as their own, these students, who didn't ask for this notoriety, are sending a message that clearly transcends their lacrosse aspirations for the coming year.
Finally, in a bizarre twist, if you link to the Indy piece, one of the ads on the left side of the screen is for the Queen of the Triangle Drag Pageant to be held at the Lincoln Theatre on Sunday, 9/24, the same day as the 60 Minutes piece is set to run. The photo in the advertisement is of Jakki O'Knight, lollipop, microphone and all! You can't make this stuff up.
Correction to previous post: paragraph 2 should read "kinds of articles". Sorry.
There were many options open to the unindicted players at that practice.
They once again chose silence.
Except for public pronouncements about how getting back to playing lacrosse was the most important thing.
It isn't. Their collective response was understandable (of course) but not a sign of moral courage or maturity.
The exact opposite.
As I know _everyone_ on this board knows, you don't get many chances to tell your side of the story flat out to a (now) largely sympathetic media.
And to stick up for your teammates. And call a hoax, a hoax.
There were many ethical options open to the players.
Including, for example, choosing one player who was _not_ at the party (and thus not bound by the gag order) and have him represent the opinions, concerns, and outrage of the entire team.
Voicing clearly and unequivocally that this case is a fraud.
That didn't do anything but "put it behind them"
---------------
When I was growing up, there was a coming-of-age novel that was part of the prep school catechism called "A Separate Peace".
It's message was that after a tragedy you can't just crawl back into the womb of childhood.
The only path out is a hard-won wisdom and a strong, honest and clear vision.
The book's famous last line is about the damage we do to ourselves in the process by denying our own culpability (large and small) for events that unfold.
All of them, constructed at infinite cost to themselves, these Maginot Lines against this enemy they thought they saw across the frontier, this enemy who never attacked that way — if he ever attacked at all; if he was indeed the enemy.
I guess kids don't read that book anymore.
Not Lacrosse players anyway.
As requested above, I copied 3:44am comment over the open board. Please move all reactions to this comment and discussions on the article it links to (INDY article) to the open board. Enough has been said here. Thank you.
For those who do not khow to get to the Open Board, go to the very top part of the "From moderator" page. There is a link which takes you there.
Moderator
Another good piece today from Cash Michaels.
ETHICAL QUESTIONS RAISED ABOUT DUKE CASE PROSECUTION
There were many options open to the unindicted players at that practice.
They once again chose silence.
Except for public pronouncements about how getting back to playing lacrosse was the most important thing.
It isn't. Their collective response was understandable (of course) but not a sign of moral courage or maturity.
The exact opposite.
As I know _everyone_ on this board knows, you don't get many chances to tell your side of the story flat out to a (now) largely sympathetic media.
And to stick up for your teammates. And call a hoax, a hoax.
There were many ethical options open to the players.
Including, for example, choosing one player who was _not_ at the party (and thus not bound by the gag order) and have him represent the opinions, concerns, and outrage of the entire team.
Voicing clearly and unequivocally that this case is a fraud.
That didn't do anything but "put it behind them"
For real?
IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING-ANYTHING ABOUT THIS CASE--THEN YOU WOULD HAVE SOME KIND OF IDEA ABOUT HOW CALCULATED THE PLAYERS "PUBLIC" RESPONSES TO THE MEDIA MUST BE.
THINK ABOUT IT...
Don't you think that they want to scream to the high heavens in defense of themselves and their indicited teammates? I know for a fact they do. But reality says that they can't--for anything said can and will be used against them or their teammates when this goes to trial.
If you are going to post here...please be informed and thoughtful before you say something so ignorant.
Oh, for sure, it was purely calculated, PR-tested, parentally-motivated response,
And it was overlawyered and timid in the extreme.
There is nothing "ignorant" in standing up for truth. People generally respond to it.
The Wade Smiths of the world are Nifong's true partners in perpetuating this farce. Always there to counsel silence and delay.
Advising their clients right into the poorhrouse, and often right into the jailhouse as well.
(Oh well, next case)
The ones who have been winning this case for the Duke 3 (and may yet pull out a pre-trial victory) are:
1. Dave Evans
2. Joe Cheshire
3. racist, rogue cop Mark Gottlieb and his inept case fixing
4. The bloggers particularly Mr Taylor and Mr. Johnson.
5. Joseph Neff
6. Cash Michaels
in that order.
High up on the list of the ones who aren't doing anyone any favors are the silent unindicted lacrosse players, and one particular ex-captain.
Sorry if that bothers you.
Friends,
Please visit the LieStoppers web site and read the following article by Joan Foster, "Nifong Needs a Trip to OZ". An extraordinary writing.
No need to comment on 3:44 AM, September 07 post. Very unprofessional and does not deserve an answer. As 11:33 AM, September 07 post said, "If you are going to post here...please be informed and thoughtful before you say something so ignorant."
Duke07 Mom
Regarding the comments regarding the players wanting to get on with the season. Please consider this as I really age myself here.
"Red" Skelton was one of the finest comedians that ever lived and was a Fraternity Brother of mine. He had a Tuesday evening show in the late 1950's.
The day his son died, he went on with the show because, as he said at the end of the show, in tears, "because my son would have wanted me to".
I wonder if our three guys would want the team to go on, even without them! I think our 3 guys are stand-up guys who would never want to hurt the team and would support them.
Just as "Red" was openly hurting that night (I saw it), many of the Duke Lacrosse team players may also be hurting for their missing players. Let's give them that doubt.
To 11:54:
What you advise might be appropriate if the only court to be concerned about is the national court of public opinion.
But the dangerous ground is the legal court of Durham with its unethical prosecutorial team and a Durham jury pool. To do what you suggest would be a dangerous tactic indeed for the indicted players. The players' lawyers who know that forum are the ones whose advice should be heeded, not yours.
Michael Gaynor has given the same advice (to the Finnerty defense team) in his columns. He was wrong and so are you. The proper tactic is to win the court case first, then spout off as much as they want.
Has anyone read the new motion from Mr. Osborn? Nifong still does not want to hand over evidence. If I'm reading the motion correctly this time he must comply with the order to hand over everything.
I hope that there is a judge that will put a stop to him, or at least put a contempt of court charge on him.
Hi, KP. I hope your letter is the bombshell we need. As to your last post...
Getting Nifong County's Judicial System to do anything about Nifong is like pulling two Queen of Hearts in the same hand.
Oh, for sure, it was purely calculated, PR-tested, parentally-motivated response,
And it was overlawyered and timid in the extreme.
There is nothing "ignorant" in standing up for truth. People generally respond to it.
The Wade Smiths of the world are Nifong's true partners in perpetuating this farce. Always there to counsel silence and delay.
Advising their clients right into the poorhrouse, and often right into the jailhouse as well.
(Oh well, next case)
The ones who have been winning this case for the Duke 3 (and may yet pull out a pre-trial victory) are:
1. Dave Evans
2. Joe Cheshire
3. racist, rogue cop Mark Gottlieb and his inept case fixing
4. The bloggers particularly Mr Taylor and Mr. Johnson.
5. Joseph Neff
6. Cash Michaels
in that order.
High up on the list of the ones who aren't doing anyone any favors are the silent unindicted lacrosse players, and one particular ex-captain.
Whose side are you on here anyway? I agree that the people you listed are helping the kids in the court of public opinion...with the exception of Dave E and Cheshire--NONE of them have a PERSONAL stake in this. These are not their children, their friends or teammates.
You really have to consider the potential legal consequences of these kids saying ANYTHING in reference to this case. Sure..it might be powerful and it might continue to help the case in the court of public opinion. But this is the real world and people get convicted of crimes that they didn't commit every day. What you want the players to do is just plain foolish and reckless.
And while there is a part of me that hopes this never goes to trial, my fear is that if it doesn't--there will continue to be questions and accusations surrounding that night. A trial may hopefully give the legal team to not only demonstrate the innocence of these three kids, but to also rightfully shame and embarrass Nifong out of a job.
Nonetheless...it is a potential risk in Durham.
Bottom line is this...if these were my children, or I was the parent of one of the Duke 3--I would want them to keep their mouths shut.
The lacross team and every other student at Duke remembers Dave, Colling, and Reade. The team need only look at their coach to be reminded why he is at their practice. The team does not need to be reminded by thoughtless bloggers of the fact that each of them won the lottery and the other three lost, for indeed it was like picking fish out of a barrel. Any of them could have been chosen. How do you forget something like that? You don't, instead, you follow the instructions of your elders - keep opinions private - then do everything possible to prove the naysayers wrong - become a top rated team and be outstanding students. No one related to the lacrosse team got off light, only lighter, so be kind to them.
Instead, encourage other Duke students to register to vote. There are voices than can and should be heard. My son called to say that he had registered to vote in Durham. His and others are the voices that need to be heard.
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